Garko the Man-Frog ([info]larpwriting) wrote,
@ 2008-02-20 23:04:00
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LARP 101 - Character

The concept underlying much of Forge Theory is that developing the elements of character, situation, color, setting, system and initial premise are organized to support  “coherence” which is an agreement on GNS focus and developed Premise, and to support stance, which should create more enjoyable play.

The basic idea is that while you might randomly happen to have fun in any game no matter how bad, if the system creates coherence and facilitates the elements that the players want, the overall chance of enjoyable play is higher.

I’m going to add my caveat here.  The special nature of Live Roleplay is that in it’s most common forms – absent an invite only, special interest community, or very small setting – it demands support for all aspects of GNS, because it is statistically unlikely to generate an audience of 20-40 people who randomly all agree on the same developed Premise. 

But the concept is still that “System Does Matter,” (that’s a catch phrase, learn to love it), so we’re going to talk about the elements of “Character” and “System”

Character

Obviously what we all want is for the system for creating characters to support the general creative agenda of the event.  I’m going to add a little personal theory here that isn’t part of Forge Theory, (it’s my blog!)

When we talk about “creating a character” I think that’s a little bit of a fallacy.  A character is an abstract set of qualities tendencies and points of view…the same as a character from drama, or fiction.   I think that when we begin to put numbers, stats, to a character that isn’t creating them and I think for live roleplay, and even RPG, that’s a bad way to think.  The numbers aren’t the character.  The character is the character. 

Years ago, Ken Brown and I talked about the term “Character Expression Language” for stat system.  The concept being that the character is an ineffable, and any stats system simply a language for attempting to quantify the character. 

In any case, moving along…

Forge Theory breaks Character into three major components:

Effectiveness – this is all the elements that determine whether or not you succeed in doing things, and if so how successful you are.   This is true whether the system has points and stats, or “in drama-based systems, effectiveness is governed by rules of dialogue.” 

A subsidiary concept is “Layered” effectiveness.  This happens when base scores combine with other numbers or elements of system to arrive at a final score which is different than the base score. 

Resource is anything which does not directly affect play but which act as a pool for Effectiveness or Metagame mechanics.   Knowledge, Cash, Sanity points, Hit Points, etc., are considered resources.  They don’t *do* anything but add to other mechanics

That’s a little different than our use of the term “Resources” in Threads of Damocles, where it is used to represent abilities that have an external locus of control – reside outside the character, for example “my friends”

Metagame – these mechanics allow players to override the Effectiveness rules, or concern things which do not have a specific formal effect on game play.  “Code Against Killing” in Champions is an example of one type of Metagame mechanic, and it could also include various “Schtick” mechanics which allow players to override the basic system with a fait accompli. 

In addition there are a few Core Concepts concerned with “Character”

Balance of Power - is the term used for the degree to which players or GMs are able to have control over the events of the game.  While very similar to the question of Internal v. External Locus of Control, Balance of Power relates very specifically to mechanics, and the Balance of Power is suggested by the presence or absence of strong Metagame abilities.  The more players are allowed to influence Metagame, the more likely the Balance of Power favors the players.

Currency – in most systems there is not simply an open ended ability to declare one’s character definitions.  If so, we would see many games where identical versions of the Greek God Zeus strode around with Godlike powers.  In most cases system uses some currence (points, or instances) to determine what mechanics one can have.  Usually these must be balanced between the three areas above.   In some games such a currency is elaborate and complex system of points.  In others it is a very simple system of instances  “pick three words to describe you.” 

Finally in discussing Reward Systems, and Punishment Systems I am going to bump to Ron Edwards at GNS and Other Matters of Role-playing Theory, Chapter 4

Currency is also related very intimately to Reward System and (for lack of a better term) Punishment System, because these feed back into the elements of Currency at every moment during play. Improvement processes are a common sort of Reward System, but not the only kind; damage and death for the character are a common sort of Punishment System, but not the only kind.

Reward systems have been very deeply researched by me, but they await a rigorous discussion, as the baseline concepts of GNS, Stance, and the components of Currency must all be integrated. Some of the issues include:

  • What is being rewarded? Attendance? Role-playing per se? Player actions? Outcomes of conflicts? In-game moments?
  • Who is being rewarded, the player or the character?
  • Are reward systems necessary? At what scopes or time-frames of play are they more or less important?
  • If we are talking about character improvement, how does it proceed? Linearly or exponentially? If exponentially, is the exponent positive or negative?
  • Do changes in the values and aspects of the character affect the exchange rate of Currency itself?
Given the astounding importance of Currency among the various components of Character, designers of role-playing games would do well to consider all of the following.

  • What the three categories are.
  • All of them do exist in the act of "playing" a character.
  • How, when, or if exchange is involved among the categories, which is to say, not just among the "named items" on the sheet.
  • Subdivisions, nuances, and layering within each one.
Unfortunately, I think that many RPG designers were and are flying entirely by the seat of their pants. Their attention was on in-game named elements like "strength" and "percent to hit" rather than Effectiveness. Such an approach to character design allows latitude for all sorts of emergent properties, such as the point-mongering in Champions or the mini-maxing in most late 80s games, or any number of other "take-over" elements of play that subvert the stated goals of the design.

I think that a more fundamentals-based approach to the design process would yield less problems of this kind. Without a vocabulary of the fundamentals, we'll end up with endless permutations of the same currency-mismatches and confusions with nearly every "new" game. In fact, that's exactly what we do have.




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[info]toothlesshag
2008-02-21 05:42 am UTC (link)
"The numbers aren’t the character. The character is the character."

I keep saying that....D&D players especially don't believe me. I really get frustrated with people who play with their character sheet on their foreheads and expect me to fear them for having an intimidating character...some people really like having those stats as their crutch "I'm not charismatic enough - so my character has this stat. Fear me."
And I think "No. Act scary. You are so not scaring me with your numbers."

How do I encourage players to move out of that kind of thinking? Or am I the stubborn one?

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[info]aries_walker
2008-02-21 06:05 am UTC (link)
I was about to post exactly that. I used to tell my players not to roll up their characters at all - they should create their characters in their heads (as a writer would), and then they can use all the numbers and figures to set them within the parameters of the game.

Unfortunately, games like D&D tend to become wargames, with (as Gordon mentioned) all the min/maxing and pointsmongering that goes on. It's up to the dedication and imagination of the players to rescue it from that rut - fortunately, dedication and imagination are the lifeblood of role-playing.

So, no, you're not the stubborn one. I think the best way to do it is by example; it's surely not an overnight process, and some people will simply never get it. For those people, I suggest Squad Leader.

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[info]jadasc
2008-02-21 07:50 am UTC (link)
For those people, I suggest Squad Leader.

Got a bit of the excluded middle going on there, don't you?

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[info]aries_walker
2008-02-21 03:38 pm UTC (link)
Shh. It was hyperbole for effect.

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Gamist Play
[info]larpwriting
2008-02-21 07:07 am UTC (link)
How do I encourage players to move out of that kind of thinking? Or am I the stubborn one?

Edwards stresses a lot that we shouldn't use GNS to beat people about the head and shoulders. We Narrativists tend to deplore "Gamist" play and consider it primitive, when really it can be very important.

Interestingly Edwards also admits that D&D is one of the only major RPGs that really focused on "Gamist" design elements.

I think that Gamism in support of Creative Agenda is fine. But what you seem to be getting at is Gamism that goes against or subverts the Creative Agenda.

In the long run the answer is "build the game from the ground up with a System that supports a Narrative Premise."

But I supsect you're looking for more concrete suggestions with immediate applicability.

I think the only thing you can do at that point is to encourage talk about Premise and push selling them on Narrativism/Simulationism.

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Re: Gamist Play
[info]balthazar99
2008-02-21 03:49 pm UTC (link)
I think you're right on target with "build the game from the ground up with a System that supports a Narrative Premise." You can talk about a Narrativism focus until you're blue in the face, but when the rubber hits the road if the guy who figured out how to min-max the fencing system is having a lot more fun because 90% of the time is spent skewering bad guys, then you're working at cross purposes. There are a lot of games (tabletop and larp) which advertise themselves as one thing, and where the GMs/writers/producers sincerely want the game to be about that thing, but where the system just doesn't support it. Ultimately, a significant portion of the players will figure this out and play the system instead of the stated game direction.

As a purely hypothetical example, say you want to run a game which is about people living in a city that's been taken over by an Evil Empire. You're imagining lots of cool roleplay about the personal sacrifices that people have to make, about what parts of their humanity they're willing to give up just to survive. Who will turn into an informer? Who will lead a hopeless resistance? Sounds like a neat Narrative premise.

Now say you're someone who doesn't care much about system, so you just grab some character creation rules and some resolution rules from somewhere else, because ultimately "The Roleplaying is the Important Part, Not the Mechanics." (This is an intentionally hyperbolic strawman; I hope it doesn't dilute the point.) You explain the cool premise to your players, and then give them the character creation rules.

Your players agree that it's a cool idea for a game. Then they look at the rules, and they see that half the skills are combat skills. Nobody wants to die in the first hour of the game, and these skills must be here for a reason, so everybody buys some. A couple of people see that there's a neat martial arts system, so they make martial arts experts. There are a bunch of science skills, so one guy decides to make a scientist character - looks like there's a niche there, might be fun. Another person is thinking about that resistance-leader idea, so he finds the skill for "Inspire people" and dumps points into that. There's no details on what Inspiring means, just that you roll your skill, and if you succeed then people are inspired. But he trusts the GMs, and figures it will work out in play.

Now you get your people together and try to run a game. You want the combat guys to have fun, and they put all of this emphasis on combat, so you have a couple of Empire Guards mistake them for criminals and have a big fight. They have fun, all is well. You want the scientist guy to have fun, so you say he has a lab. He sees the big fight, and wants to know if he can make some weapons. You fudge up something quickly, because it makes sense and it will make him happy, and now the combat guys have an item card that makes them better at combat. Your Inspiration guy is going around Inspiring people. To make him happy, you have some of your cast act Inspired. Your other PCs may or may not be inspired - there's no rules, and you don't want to be coercive, so you leave it up to them. If you're lucky, they'll throw the guy a bone and roleplay a little, but ultimately they want to have another fun fight. They ask the GM if this Inspiration thing can give them a bonus in combat. The GM figures that sounds like fun, and it makes people feel useful, so he says yes. Everybody's happy - people are coming to the Inspiration guy and listening to his speechifying.

(Continued...)

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Re: Gamist Play
[info]balthazar99
2008-02-21 03:50 pm UTC (link)
(from previous post)

Next game there's a lot more ass-kicking, because people now have all of these abilities in that direction, and you want everyone to feel useful, and everybody seemed to have fun at the fight last time. Nobody is min-maxing, nobody is trying to break the system, nobody is doing anything wrong. Everybody is just trying to have fun. But your notion of a game about subtle betrayals, internal moral conflict, and compromises of the soul is on the way toward evaporating entirely. You can throw in some NPCs to hammer on these themes, and the players will probably enjoy roleplaying with them. But the game is no longer _about_ that, if it ever was.

To me, this is what "System Matters" is all about. It's not about deriding people for being Gamist - it's about figuring out what kind of game you want, and then making the system match that, instead of picking a system and getting whatever shakes out of it naturally. Maybe in the hypothetical example you have a single stat for Combat, and a rule that if there's ever more than four Empire Guards in a scene, all of the players automatically lose, because the Empire's just that overpowering and they can call on support. Maybe you have a Trust system (like in The Mountain Witch) that people can play with, that naturally helps factions and deception to come up during play. Maybe you start everybody with secrets about other people, and trade of these secrets becomes the main currency of the game. But everything you do, you do to try to promote the premise of the game, and you cut out parts that don't support that, even if people normally expect to find them in any complete system. (Maybe you don't need wound and healing rules. Maybe you don't need money. Maybe you don't need combat rules. Etc.)

I think that larp has a special challenge here, though, particularly campaign larp. Because the premise that you might want to explore may shift from game to game, or from scene to scene, and so you may want some kind of generic rules/stats/system that you can use for lots of different situations. I don't know of a good answer for that, but I'd be very interested to see if anyone's come up with anything.

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[info]jadasc
2008-02-21 07:46 am UTC (link)
How do I encourage players to move out of that kind of thinking?

Short answer? Give a little.

What that guy is actually saying is this: "I'd really like to play an intimidating character, but I'm not an intimidating guy. Therefore, I'm going to use the system to bolster me in the areas where I'm not so confident. Give me the benefit of the doubt?"

And you're saying, "Nope. If you can't impress me as a player, I'm not going to validate your character, regardless of what the rules we agreed to play by say." Which only makes him feel more self-conscious about what he can or can't do.

The way you change that is, in the kayfabe, you "sell" for the guy. Pull just enough interaction from him that you can ground your own portrayal, and then *act intimidated.* Overact a little bit, if necessary. Let him know that if he's willing to act scary, you'll be willing to act scared. Positive reinforcement works wonders.

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[info]the_smith_e
2008-02-21 01:05 pm UTC (link)
While I agree with giving a little I think that one thing that makes LARP different from table top is that the limitations of the player matter a bit more. Playing the charismatic guy requires you to do a bit of that yourself and not assume game abilities will let you.

Intimidation, of course, is hard in LARP as everyone wants to be a tough guy and no one wants to back down.

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[info]jadasc
2008-02-21 02:01 pm UTC (link)
Playing the charismatic guy requires you to do a bit of that yourself and not assume game abilities will let you.

Conceded. What I wanted to emphasize is that the straw LARPer in question isn't doing it to be venal or be lazy; it's because he wants it to work. Trusting people to react appropriately to your portrayal has a chance of working; backing that up with the mechanics seems more reliable. (And, frankly, if the game mechanics don't let you do that in practice, you've got the wrong mechanics for the crowd.)

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[info]jadasc
2008-02-21 02:01 pm UTC (link)
Intimidation, of course, is hard in LARP as everyone wants to be a tough guy and no one wants to back down.

This is why we need more and better rewards for losing. :)

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Intimidation and weakness
[info]the_smith_e
2008-02-21 02:06 pm UTC (link)
Yes and no. It partially depends on character and game type. In a lot of campaign LARP, there is a subset of people enamored with the Action Hero who nevers shows weakness or backs down. I would argue this is a much a player education issue as anything.

I just don't see systems as the solution to many of these problems although I do think that writers and GMs can be more sensitive to them.

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Player education.
[info]jadasc
2008-02-21 02:30 pm UTC (link)
In a lot of campaign LARP, there is a subset of people enamored with the Action Hero who nevers shows weakness or backs down. I would argue this is a much a player education issue as anything.

Aside: is there a definition of "player education" that doesn't reduce to "making people feel guilty about enjoying the things they like?" I've seen it a lot over the past decade and it always boils down to, "you'd be having more fun if you did things my way. Or at least I'd be having more fun if you did things my way."

I'm a little more open to system solutions than you, if only because so many of the ones that seem apparent to me haven't yet been tried. Then again, in this GNS-Big Model discussion, "system" is everything that's actually done, whether the text supports it or not. "Pure persona play backed by mother-may-I? GMing" is a system, even if no one's ever written that down. :)

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Re: Player education.
[info]the_smith_e
2008-02-21 02:39 pm UTC (link)
My player education in my personal example is a bit more subversive as for Threads I am a player/writer so I will try to find ways to "educate" by drawing people in during the game or debating between games. As a GM, it is harder because all LARPers want to stand against "The MAN".

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Re: Player education.
[info]sjo
2008-02-21 02:43 pm UTC (link)
Nah, some players want to be "The MAN." :-)

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Re: Player education.
[info]the_smith_e
2008-02-21 02:45 pm UTC (link)
Heck, I have been part of "The MAN" most of my life. And yes, that is clearly what I am doing with Sykes.

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Re: Player education.
[info]jadasc
2008-02-21 02:46 pm UTC (link)
As a GM, it is harder because all LARPers want to stand against "The MAN".

Well, there's the difference. I cut my teeth on chronicle WoD gaming, where everyone desperately wants to be "The MAN." ;)

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Re: Player education.
[info]the_smith_e
2008-02-21 02:50 pm UTC (link)
In game, but out of game they get all upset with staff telling them anything. I have played in my share of political games.

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Re: Player education.
[info]toothlesshag
2008-02-22 12:37 am UTC (link)
I started the thread, so I thought maybe I should respond.

OOOOOOOOOH.

Neat.

And I agree that LARP expects more out of you, and limits you more. I see it like writing a play, and your players are casting themselves in roles that would be oscarworthy....FOR THEM.

Would you like to see me play a big mean troll orc-man with a deep voice? What?? You woudlnt?? Oh, in a tabletop you would...

I work with a lot of people that come from this tabletop mindset...interesting. And yes - the lots of rules in D&D does make it really interesting and allows for a lot more with your character than a rules-light larp. So I do see now that the system matters - some characters would not be fun in some systems if I expected to win (or if it would not be fun to lose - it would affect my character creation.)

NOW the whole journal entry comes together for me.

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Re: Player education.
[info]larpwriting
2008-02-22 08:12 pm UTC (link)
I may be unique in being perfectly fine with guilt. There is this societal concept that "guilt" is a bad thing, the whole "me" generation concept. I should be able to do whatever I want and if you "guilt" me by pointing out that what I have done is basically wrong or harmful, you're raining on my parade.

If there's an issue of "guilt" then it isn't "you'd be having more fun doing things my way." Any realistic guilt begins when "your having all the fun you want is hurting someone else's game."

I think player education is like any other social education. We teach people to be restrained and to curb themselves when they are in danger of running roughshod over other people. I think you can do that in LARP to, and need to.

I don't want to make people feel guilty about enjoying X. But if the definition of enjoying X is that it requires making two other players not enjoy X, then I see a problem there.

Ultimately game design should be set up to allow for as many instances of X and as much flexibility in X as possible, so that players don't *have* to feel guilty.

But yeah, I believe being a socially responsible player calls for some restraint, and I believe that part of the role of the organizer is to set expectations as to where that restraint is and is not called for.

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[info]tpau
2008-02-21 05:25 pm UTC (link)
When we talk about “creating a character” I think that’s a little bit of a fallacy. A character is an abstract set of qualities tendencies and points of view…the same as a character from drama, or fiction. I think that when we begin to put numbers, stats, to a character that isn’t creating them and I think for live roleplay, and even RPG, that’s a bad way to think. The numbers aren’t the character. The character is the character.

Well yes and no. i know that when i create a character, i usually do the stats first. There are two reasons for this.

One, it is basically a step by step questionaire of my character (are the ysmart? strong? dexterous? etc) therefore stepping throughthe guideline of the char sheet i am able to get myself to answer the questions i need answered about my character.

Two, a character is for me a part of me. i need to draw them out of myself, spearate them, sort out their story. i do stats and then explain them in background, rather then make a background and then fit stats to it. i find this both easier and it creates a more diverse character. otherwise, they would all be brilliant professors of untold beuty with perfect everything. which si dull. so i create the randmoized stats (or tradeoff stats) and then explain that well, theyare nto strong because they were sick as a kid, and they are not a perfect shot because of this and that and so on.

this is not to say that stats are everything, but they are a valid place to start. and, they are a valid box. as i have said before, i at least find it hard to think outside the box if i do not know where the box is.

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Character creation: tabletop "vs." LARP
[info]therevdrnye
2008-02-22 08:12 am UTC (link)
I have only created my own characters for LARPs two or three times, but I'd have to say that the creation process has been very different from my experience creating characters for tabletop RPGs. I have only LARPed in TSFL events that happened in a single weekend, and in short LARPs which have taken place in 5 or 6 hours, but I can scarcely imagine thinking that I had put less effort into defining the personality and background of certain LARP characters for standalone events than I might for a campaign LARP.


One difference between LARP character creation and tabletop character creation is that in LARPs that I have created characters for, I have had no specific idea of what game mechanics would be used in the LARP. That helped move the focus of the creation process from "what is the character able to do" to "who is the character, and what kind of person are they?" In general, my experience of LARP character creation has been that "what can my character do" is an addendum to "who is the character?". Knowing who I thought the character should be, I suggested what kind of skills they might have, and suggested a general description of their physical attributes and capabilities.

When creating characters for RPGs, the Gamist mechanisms within those systems have become useful to me as a way to "discover" things about the character that guide me in determining *who* they should be. In D&D, I have played enough that sometimes I just want to do something I haven't done for a while (Gamist boredom; "I've played a ton of fighters, so let's do something different") or to do something differently than I have done it before (Narrativist curiosity; "My Druid character that everyone remembers was a tough, butt-kicking bitch; let's try a Type B personality druid who may even be a bit of a coward, for contrast").

Traveller and Twilight:2000 have provided a different experience; system-driven character creation processes can potentially provide a lot of information which can be used to extrapolate what kinds of experience have formed the character.

Champions has provided the experience closest to my LARP experiences as regards character creation. Character Point based systems are intended to allow a great deal of freedom in determining what a character can do; unless the player's only concern is mini-max strategy to produce the most Gamist "bang per buck", it is likely that some Narrative concerns drive at least a few basic decisions from which the details of character skill and ability can be extrapolated.


In LARPing, I have (as noted) only been able to create a character of my choice on a few occasions. In two cases (covering 3 LARPs), I picked a character that I was interested in playing from a literary source... the first one was a specific character based on a specific source, and the second was a genre-based character extrapolated from several elements which appeared in the source material, rather than a specific character from the source. In another case, I was chatting with a Writer/GM about an upcoming LARP that he was working on, and I ended up proposing a character with certain attributes that would serve the GM's Narrative purposes.

In each of these cases, my first concern was to decide *who* the character was - what motivated him, and what kind of background had created his personality - and all Gamist elements came afterwards. The burglar needed to be physically robust, for certain, and the occultist needed to be intelligent and strong-willed; the brilliant programmer needed to be brilliant and abnormally skillful at programming, but all of these things followed after determining who these characters were, and what kind of people they were going to be in play.


Summarized, I suppose that in LARP character creation I have been first concerned with "who" and "why", and "what" and "how" have followed as dictated by the first two concerns. In RPGing, most of my experience has been that "what" and "how" system-driven processes can illuminate the "who" and "why" thought process. In order to state this more clearly I'd have to write at considerable length (compared to this very brief note :-).

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[info]larpwriting
2008-02-22 04:20 pm UTC (link)
One, it is basically a step by step questionaire of my character (are the ysmart? strong? dexterous? etc) therefore stepping throughthe guideline of the char sheet i am able to get myself to answer the questions i need answered about my character.

Stop for a moment and think about that. You've summarized a bunch of things that are not what defines a character.

When you think of yourself do you think of yourself as a "dextrous strong person" Or even a person with "a high skill in programming."

Likely not, though the latter is more likely than the former.

You think of yourself as shy or extroverted, as pretty or not pretty, as handsome or not handsome, as social or not social, and likely you define yourself more by the structures you are a part of than your skillset. More people I know are likely to say "I work for X Software" than "I have a high programming skill" though the one suggests the other.

When you start with "I have a high programming skill" you are working backwards from the identity of the character.

People identify themselves by what clubs they participate in, what hobbies they have, and what school they went to, not their Dex.

It may be true that biologically someone ends up in LARP because they have a strong natural acting talent. But to generate a character with an acting talent of 5, then rationalize "oh well I guess they'd do LARP as a hobby" is going backwards from the way that real people act and think about themselves.

The result is usually, though not always a character that looks like a think latex sheet of personality painfully stretched over a framework of stats. It doesn't look or feel realistic and often doesn't play well.

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[info]tpau
2008-02-22 04:29 pm UTC (link)
yeah but thos eare also stats. pretty or not is charisma and appearance. social skill is a stat.

i have found that my characters look and feel realistic, and play fairly well for me. and they have all, table-top and LARP are created in this backwards to you way...

lets do an example here. You are relatively familiar with Jack, yes? How did Jacks backgroudn and stuff get created? Especially since there was no system for the game back then?

i was talkign to lisa and aaron. they asked me to tell them about my character, who as yet had no name. icould not. in fact what they got was "i dunno" and a shrug. all i knew was gender and origin (ppoc).

aaron then proceeded to ask questions. "is she strong? dexterous? old? young? good at talking to folks?" that forced me tothink of concretes, a structure, and i was able to anser the questions, thus forming the character in my head.

then i descided that since i didnt' want romance plots i needed an explanation in-game, so a whole lot of her back story came from that. but it all started as a linear step through what basically ammounted to a stat sheet.

when the stats did come out, i went through them alphabetically, asking myself if Jack had this or that one. I couldn't until then, tell you really what sorts of skills she had.

i think fundamentally you and i think completely differently about this, which is fine. i sorta like my way, it works for me.

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[info]tpau
2008-02-22 04:31 pm UTC (link)
on a more personal note, i hav eplayed the "how do you define yourself" game before. what i tend to come up with looks like this:

i am:
annA
female
Jewish
from Russia
good programmer
good artist
bad writer
dexterous
not strong
willfull
oppinionated

so yes, i think of myself in terms of stats :)

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[info]balthazar99
2008-02-23 06:09 am UTC (link)
I would tend to agree with you that most people probably do not think of themselves primarily in terms of what we would normally call 'stats'. But by framing the question that way, you're biasing the answer toward Actor stance - how people see themselves from within.

There are many characters in movies and books which, if you asked people to describe them, would probably result in something very much like either a profession or a list of skills. This is particularly true in genre fiction. In other words, from Audience stance or Director stance, I think the stat-based approach is pretty valid.

James Bond: suave super-spy
Indiana Jones: tough and clever two-fisted archeologist
Luke Skywalker: hotshot pilot, young Jedi
Bruce Willis' sidekick in Die Hard With a Vengeance whose name I forget: Uber-computer hacker
Angela Lansbury: elderly detective
Charlie Allnut: hard-drinking riverboat captain
Sherlock Holmes: hyper-intelligent and perceptive gentleman detective
etc.

If 'stats' covers skills, professions, inherent qualities (like being smart or charismatic) and wealth, you have the tools to put together thumbnail descriptions of most characters, especially genre ones. And from there it's perfectly valid to reason backward and say "I wonder where Indiana Jones might have gone to school", or "What kind of games might Luke Skywalker enjoy in his spare time".

Not to say the other approach, or any other approach, isn't also capable of producing good results. You could build a good character by deciding what kind of shoe he wears, and then spreading out from there, I imagine, with some difficulty.

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Actor Stance
[info]larpwriting
2008-02-23 05:43 pm UTC (link)
I don't entirely disagree with what you say, but I think I was pushing at something a little deeper than that. I think, and here really I stray away from RPG theory into drama and fiction, that developing from stats sabotages even what you reference above.

I think the desirable thing is to say "I want to play a super spy, who is suave." I think if you are working from the other direction "I want high combat and social stats, what character type fits these," is *more likely* to yield a very generic sort of cardboard cutout.

You can get lucky. I've even done this. In Dark Summonings I developed a character concept that really didn't support the author's premise for the game, and ended up in a struggle with other players for control of the premise. Dark Summonings, first run, is really a textbook illustration of what happens in LARP when there's no guidance on the premise and various groups of players campaign to set the creative agenda according to their own preferences.

So for ARC, I sat down to try and build a character I could enjoy that worked with the premise of the game. I really figured out what stats and abilities I wanted in an ARC game that would make a character I could enjoy, then hung a personality on that which seemed to fit. So I think it can happen.

But it's been my experience that people who start with "I want to play a suave super spy" do better than people who sit down and determine what stats they want to play then say "what sort of character fits these stats." By "do better" I mean express less long term frustration.

Really the answer may be a happy medium though. I realize that what I really did is analyze what sorts of PLAY I wanted to do which would be viable within the scope of the game, then I mapped stats and character onto that. So I think there may lie the answer. If you know for sure what sorts of play you enjoy maybe you can start by working from character stats.

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[info]sssalvadora
2009-01-16 08:25 pm UTC (link)
Hey, I just stumbled upon this while reading about LARP character creation, and I must say I find the whole discussion fascinating, particularly since I'm an actor who's getting into a project based on LARP, and so I'm really not coming at it from the tabletop perspective, but I also keep reading an awful lot of, well, "interesting" assumptions some LARPers make when talking about acting. Interesting from the point of view of my context, anyway. (And it's surprising how much of it is informed by American Method acting, which has its merits but is certainly not a system for everyone.)

Here's some food for thought: I've actually used stats (in a way) to great effect when training actors or rehearsing or improvising. For instance, say you're improvising a party. Put ten actors onstage and tell them to do it, and you get a sorry mess of nothing--relationships change, nobody can find a common thread. But if you give each of them a playing card, whose face value directly corresponds to their level of drunkenness, all of a sudden they have no problem playing the scene, because they understand where they are in relation to all the other players.

While I understand that tabletop players may have to free themselves from the numbers in order to really get the most out of LARPing, I'd also say that people who are more experienced in performing characters can get a lot of help from using stats and numbers--although basically those stats aren't really useful if they aren't meaningful in terms of the whole scene, and if you can't really compare your stat to someone else's.

Thanks for the post, though!

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